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We saw the Initiative soldiers for the first time in The Freshman. The Scoobies saw them for the first time in Fear, Itself, but attributed their attire to Halloween costumes. |
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| Suggested by: | › Jess |
| Added: | › 23rd April 2005 |
| Updated: | › |
| Hits: | › 455 |
26 Comments about “First Initiative glimpses”
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August 4th, 2005 at 10:02 pm
I’ve a distinct memory of thinking how interesting the soldiers were on first sight. Oh how very wrong I was.
August 4th, 2005 at 10:23 pm
I know what you mean Jess.
At first sight I thought the whole initiative thing sounded like a great idea but I really didnt like it.
I am very outspoken on season 4 - my worst season - don’t ge me wrong there are some great episodes in there but the major storyline in general was terrible. Adam was the worst big bad ever!
August 4th, 2005 at 11:13 pm
I sort of agree, I felt that the idea of a gov’t agency to deal with demons was a great idea, but it’s execution wasn’t as well done as it might have been. All that aside, I have really come to love season four because I think that the writing and acting was strong although even that couldn’t save the main story unraveling toward the end. It might have been better if they had made it more about the gov’t and mind control more generally, rather than invest everything into Adam, who bordered on the silly at times.
August 5th, 2005 at 12:04 am
Agree with Mel. Adam was easily the worst Big Bad. Crap idea, crap design, crappy crap crap.
I mean, would a super-duper, state of the art demon-hybrid warrior be built with a floppy disc drive as his main access to files/information etc? I know you later see him hooked up to computer systems through a port in his head but the scene in the initiative where he reveals himself and proceeds to insert discs to access info…gah, it was awful!
As for the initiative themselves…well I’ve come to enjoy season 4 a lot more with the benefit of hindsight. They are indeed incredibly annoying, but that was kind of the point. They’re by-the-book, gung ho, military, macho meatheads…but (and here’s the important point) they can’t save they day, they fail.
The message is pretty clear. Their way of looking at problems, the world etc, is deeply flawed. In the end they’re bailed out by the anarchic, spontaneous, ‘feminine’, intuitive power of Buffy and co. There’s a big Jossy/feminist subtext in there I reckon…and for that reason I’ve revised my opinion on a season I used to dislike.
Oh, Adam still sucks though!
August 5th, 2005 at 12:08 am
I loved Season 4 to pieces. Not necessarily for Adam as the Big Bad, although he was interesting, but for the character changes. Giles deals with no longer being a Watcher and of Buffy outgrowing him, Willow deals with losing Oz and finding Tara, Xander deals with trying to find his place in the world and whether that includes Anya. And of course Buffy has to deal with growing up and with finally fighting something that is bigger, stronger and faster than her. The character arcs in Season 4 were without compare.
Plus I thought Adam was a good Big Bad.
Sorry for the O/T
Puja
August 5th, 2005 at 12:12 am
Hail - you really felt that strongly about Adam? Quite apart from the makeup (which I thought was quite good), I thought the idea of a Big Bad, who didn’t really understand the world and was acting solely on the information he was given was quite interesting and I was a little disappointed that this part of him wasn’t given more screentime.
I guess that section of Joss’s writing really came out in Illyria in Angel Season 5.
Puja
August 5th, 2005 at 12:32 am
Puja - Yes, I’m afraid I really disliked the whole Adam concept from start to finish. Well, I’ll qualify that slightly: I liked the way he was an unholy fusion of mystical and technological elements, since that whole theme of conflict between those two forces was a pretty important part of the season.
I really thought the design was lazy and awful though…it wasn’t remotely scary and looked like something out of a cheap, straight-to-video, sci-fi turkey: Psycho Robo Demon Soldier Guy! Too cliched, and too Frankenstein’s monster-esue.
You’re right about Illyria. There are obvious parallels…but I though the general concept was better executed in that case. I’m still not madly keen on the whole idea though as it’s used too often as a pretty trite device. Think of Arnie in Terminator 2, “I now know why you cry”, or the laboured mileage they get out of Data’s cluelessness in Star Trek: TNG.
August 5th, 2005 at 12:48 am
I think this is what happened during the meetings about what to do with season 4 with Joss and his crew: “These are great character arcs guys! This is going to be so cool…..crap we don’t have a villian. What is something we can come up with in 15 minutes?” :) Season 4’s big bad seemed like the small bad because the focas was more on the characters rather then Adam. I agree with Puja, the make-up was outstanding but I never felt like Adam was a threat. Every other big bad I was a little concerned with but with Adam, I didn’t even realize he was going to be the big bad of season 4 until we got to the last couple of episodes and I said, “Where is it? Where is the season villian?” and my friend said it was Adam. Maybe because it was the only season finale without an apocalyspe!
The funny thing: I loved season 4! It’s my second favorite season (I’m old school Buffy: My favorite is season 2)because of the acting, writing and character developments. Willow going gay, Giles and his mid-life crisis (is there anything funnier then a drunk Giles? I mean, really), and Buffy becoming an adult. I thought it was great!
August 5th, 2005 at 1:20 am
Well, I’ll admit that drunk Giles is pretty damn funny! I love A New Man and the scene between him and Ethan in the bar is a delight.
Season 4 is definitely a grower…shame the same thing can’t be said about season 6…ahem.
And I’m with you on Season 2. My favourite as well.
August 5th, 2005 at 1:45 am
Season 4 had some of the best music, score wise. That scene, where we see the initative for the first time–I’ve played it over and over just to hear the music. That said, I agree with Abby about the non-initiative part of season 4, it had some of the best character development in the series. And who doesn’t love a drunken giles (and his attempt at playboy bachelor-hood at the beginning)? Also, Anya! The way that Emma Caulfield was able to just take that character and run from the very beginning.
I still kind of see 1,2, and 3 as a trilogy of sorts; it’s hard to pull the high school story apart in my head. Otherwise, Season 5 is my favorite. Dawn is annoying, but it works. It’s the best written in my opinion, having the strongest narrative thread and most interesting moral questions to ponder. Season six is good in a campy sort of way, we get the musical and the evil willow, but there are so many other things wrong with it. Season Seven is just terrible, I mean, just plain awful.
August 5th, 2005 at 1:51 am
Actually, Season 6 has grown on me as well, again for the reason of the character arcs. Willow’s magical-addiction post-Tabula Rasa was a little clumsy, but Buffy’s struggle to reconcile her hatred of life and her attraction to Spike with what she used to be saved the season. Plus Tara came into her own when used in this season. Season 4’s still my favourite though, followed by 2,3,5,6,1 and 7 in that order.
That’s actually the reason I wasn’t that keen on Season 7. The idea was brilliant and the plotline was very nicely done, but the characters were appalling. The established ones were cardboard-cutouts. I didn’t feel like I knew these characters - they were just actors saying lines to move the story onwards. I cried when Buffy’s mom died, not for the action, but for Buffy’s sheer bewilderment at the death and Anya’s sudden burst of emotion. I wasn’t really that bothered about any of these characters, with the possible exception of Xander and Anya’s reconciliation, which in itself was clumsily handled and had too little depth. I especially didn’t care about Willow and Kennedy, who had the romantic vibe of a jammy dodger. I didn’t get to know Kennedy at all and what I did get to see was bratty. You didn’t get why Willow fancied her and why she was able to suddenly get over Tara. I was disappointed in Joss trying to jerry rig a happy ending there.
Chosen saved the series, but overall - too many characters, too little characterisation.
Puja
August 5th, 2005 at 1:56 am
Don’t get me started on Kennedy.
Seven just smacked of “trying too hard.” There are still some episodes I haven’t seen so I really can’t speak to the season as a whole.
Yeah, I really liked Tara in season six. In season four, I like her, but she’s so awkward that she can actually be kind of hard to watch sometimes.
What’s a “jammy dodger”? I want to use that to describe something now.
August 5th, 2005 at 2:06 am
New Trivia:
A Jammy Dodger is a type of biscuit (cookie for the Septics) made from two bits of shortcake with jam in the middle.
They came into Buffy when Puja was stuck in a simile swamp whilst looking for something with no romantic vibe and happened to be eating biscuits at the time.
Puja
August 5th, 2005 at 2:22 am
Puja, you’ve pretty much nailed how I feel about season 7 there, so I won’t try and elaborate on it too much.
Way too much story pushed through at the expense of some nice character-based breathing space, or ‘down time’. Couldn’t agree more RE: The Willow/Kennedy relationship…it was all so rushed and so terribly forced.
BtVS at its best never let the demands of exposition get in the way of warm, complex, challenging drama with very strong and interesting characters dragging the whole thing along merrily. To be honest, that’s one of the reasons why (though I really enjoy it) I’ve never warmed to “Angel” in quite the same way. Huge story arcs tend to increase the danger of the ‘human’ drama falling by the wayside.
P.S: I’d kill for a Jammy Dodger right about now…
August 5th, 2005 at 2:26 am
Oh and I forgot to mention that though I generally think Season 6 is pretty damn poor…I take my hat off to SMG for her beautifully judged performance of someone locked in a downward spiral of self-hatred. Marvellous, and moving, stuff.
August 5th, 2005 at 3:45 am
Yeah, I like the “I am going to kick demon ass” Buffy, not “I am going to sleep with a demon (although trying to be good) to feel again” Buffy. The end of season 6 certainly was great, the scene between Xander and Willow in Grave is absolutly fantastic! SMG acting was pretty good too considering it was so different from her usualy Buffy chracter. Season 7…yeah…Puja pretty much nailed it. They tried to fit so much into a single season that should have had more time to develop.
I can understand about the trilogy thing mairceridwen, I think I love the earlier seasons because I am in high school now. I can just hope maybe one day I will walk into the secluded library and a handsome British man will tell me I am the slayer. :)
BTW: My favorite seasons are 2,4,3,5,1,7,6 in that order.
August 5th, 2005 at 7:16 am
Puja nails my feelings about season 7 entirely by saying:
“The established ones were cardboard-cutouts. I didn’t feel like I knew these characters - they were just actors saying lines to move the story onwards.”
Nice one, Puja - have a jammy dodger as a reward.
The characters that I had grown to love didn’t feel like the same in s7 - you could spot a Xander-joke a mile off, Giles became stuffy again and SMG just seemed to want to be somewhere else.
The Kennedy/Willow relationship was plain awful. Besides the fact that the two had zero chemistry and the actress (something Lemon) used her facial features to “act” as though the rest of her was paralysed… besides that - why did the writers even feel that Willow had to be with someone to be complete? Surely her fabulous spell at the end of Chosen, and her successful reintegration into her group of friends would be enough? It’s as though they were thinking, “well, what Willow really needs to be happy is to be laid”.
I was also disappointed with the way the relationship between Giles and Buffy was treated in season seven. They spent years building up this fabulous paternal relationship with Anthony Stewart Head making me weep with nearly every kindly look he gave to Buffy. In season seven he couldn’t touch anything for a while, which seemed a stupidly long build up to what eventually became a 3 second joke about Giles not touching up young girls on a camping trip.
So he seemed cold and distant, and never regained his humour and, much worse, he and Buffy fell out (over SPIKE for god’s sake - don’t get me started there) and never properly “made up”. All we got in Chosen was him saying something like “if you want my opinion” and her saying “really do”. Huh? Is that it?
August 5th, 2005 at 7:54 am
I agree. My favourite was season 2. I don’t need to write anymore cos it has all been said.
August 5th, 2005 at 12:22 pm
The best season for me is season 2. Loved the whole Angelus storyline and thought David Boreanaz was absolutely brilliant as the big bad.
Season 7, I enjoyed but still moaned about some of the characters
Kennedy - dont get me started - lets just say if I was a writer she would have killed about 5 minutes after arriving in Sunnydale!
The part about season 7 I hate mose is in Empty Places where for some strange reason, the gang all side with Faith and go against Buffy! Why?? Even Giles, who for some reason decided to go with Principal Wood (who he hardly knew and also knew that he had a personal interest in Spike) and tried to kill Spike.
Anya’s speach about Buffy just being luckier really grated on me - she had tried to kill about 8 people at the start of the season and Buffy and the gang still let her hang but she gets on the bandwagon with the rest of them
But the ones that really annoyed me were the Scoobies (including Dawn) - since when have they not trusted Buffy’s judgement - she had got them that far! And proved to be right - yet again!
I think the writers needed someway of splitting the gang up so they could have Buffy being on her own to finally find what they needed.
Sorry, ranted on a bit there.
August 5th, 2005 at 2:12 pm
You’re right Mel, the whole “Buffy being booted out by the gang” thing felt very forced and very artificial. Talk about ingrates!
August 5th, 2005 at 3:18 pm
That whole thing pissed me off too. Buffy has a great line, “Democracies don’t win battles.”
I could have kissed her for saying that.
The thing that didn’t make sense to me was that Buffy had shown, “questionable judgement” and acted too hastily in the past, but she always came around and now all of her friends turn on her. And kick out a slayer in the middle of a “war”???
August 26th, 2005 at 7:47 am
I’m sorry I’ve got to butt in here. It infuriates me when people knock whole seasons. Each season had good and bad parts. Maybe I’m just easy to please but I think season seven and six were just as good as the other seasons. Each season had really bad episodes. and really great episodes.
I know I’ll never be able to convince people not to hate the following characters, Dawn, Riley, Kennedy, Connor. Maybe i’ve been an outsider so long that I’m drawn to the out siders.
No one would have pleased the Willow Tara shippers. I personally was looking forward to Kennedy and was pleased with the actriss. You all say the relation ship was forced. The Character was aggressive. She grew up as almost an only child and was used to getting want she wanted. And who doesn’t want willow.
I will be awaiting your hate mail
August 30th, 2005 at 4:34 am
Dawn and Riley *worked* in a way that Kennedy just did not. I didn’t like them, but the annoying-as-hell kid sister and nice-guy boyfriend added something to the show. The characters had depth and the actors were good, not the best, but good.
I complain about Kennedy’s personality because it’s fun, but that’s not the problem. The writing for the character was bad as was the acting (which may not be Limon’s fault since the direction for the whole season was pretty weak). Pay attention, it’s not that Kennedy forced herself into Willow’s life, but that the relationship FELT forced. It’s not about Kennedy being aggressive, but that it didn’t feel sincere and genuine and that the directors/writers were trying too hard. There is NO chemistry between the characters. In the end, their relationship smacks of those gratuitious lesbian relationships on television (added for a little *spice*), which is degrading to the characters and demeans all the good work Joss Whedon did to portray thoughtful (but still entertaining) gay relationships.
I’ve seen a few good “moments” from seven, but not one good episode. I think the problem with Seven is epitomized by Willow and Kennedy: lack of chemistry between characters, everything was forced and artificial. It seems as though chemistry was missing from all the relationships, even those that had been developed over the previous six seasons.
Season Seven: Bad acting. Bad writing. Bad directing.
August 30th, 2005 at 10:32 am
This discussion is being so interesting! Saintsaucey, I’m glad to see I’m not the only one who liked Kennedy. I’m not trying to be different, honestly I hadn’t imagined she was so unpopular among fans. I missed some chapters of s7, maybe I missed some crucial chapeter in whch she was completely horrible… Anyway I still maintain someone strong and determined (a spoilt brat if you want) was what Willow needed to shake off her insecurities. Tara was marvellous, still.
I can’t stand up for Riley, though. I don’t know exactly what is it, but he’s really my least favourite character. About the gang betraying Buffy… yes, it felt forced and was completely horrible and absurd.
October 25th, 2005 at 8:21 am
I want to agree with TwoToGo-Grave (who happens to be my brother) and state that I liked season seven a lot as well. I have to disagree with Mairceridwen, who stated that there are no good episodes in season seven. “Conversations with Dead People,” “Selfless,” “Storyteller,” and “Chosen” are all great episodes (although I like a lot of the other episodes from this season.) While there are some problems, such as Anthony Stewart Head’s lack of touching anything, the pointless kidnapping of Spike, and pretty much all of “Beneath You,” and the horrid “Sleeper,” I thought that the season as a whole worked well. I found it to be entertaining, and I still do when I watch episodes from the season.
January 27th, 2006 at 3:11 pm
I totally agree with everything NFA said, this whole: From beneath you it devoures made me only irritated.
My all time favourite is Season 2!
Best storyine, I’m a fan of season 5 too, (despite Dawn)
People keep on complaining about how bad the 4th season was, Ok the initive sucked beyond everything else.
But it was am very entertaining season.
LOVe Pangs!